From: corelog	Date: October 29th, 2007 04:33 am (UTC)		(Link)

It certainly wasn't all your fault, as far as my mood was concerned. There's just nothing to do around here, nobody to talk to, nowhere to go. I wasn't feeling mopey, just lifeless.

As far as you and buttons, I'll just say that you seem to be consistently of the mind that nobody who gets paid for software is good or makes anything useful. Further, that only those people who do not get paid for software are worth any amount of anybody's time, even if the software is buggy, doesn't work, or is poorly documented. That may not be your stance on things, or it might be; it doesn't really matter.

I am personally of the mind that those who help me deserve my support in return. While some software I've used isn't perfect (Trillian and ignitionServer are the first two examples to come to mind; Ubuntu is another), all of those packages filled a purpose to a level that I deemed acceptable. Therefore, I continue to use those packages and give the developers a good long chance to fix things, as long as core functionality remains the same.

You don't see things the same way I do. I realize this. I accept this. I wonder, however, if my choices can or will ever be considered respectable by you.

	From: altivo	Date: October 29th, 2007 10:31 am (UTC)		(Link)

*finds the chip on the wuffy's shoulder and throws it in Bear Lake*

There. I really said nothing about software until you brought it up last night. And you immediately put me in a position where it didn't matter what I said, I would have been wrong.

I really, truly, don't care what software you use. I do think that people who charge money for their software have a much higher obligation to deliver a reliable and well-documented product. Charging a price (sometimes a very high one) and then hiding behind a TOS agreement that says, in essence "We don't guarantee anything and aren't responsible if it doesn't work or does terrible things" is pretty despicable in my opinion. That would apply to Microsoft. It doesn't apply to any of the others you named unless, in fact, you paid for them.

Now as for the "nothing to do" situation, that one puzzles me. I can pretty honestly say I've not found myself in that state for so long that I can hardly remember it. You seem much too bright and creative to have that problem.

	From: corelog	Date: October 29th, 2007 01:09 pm (UTC)		(Link)

I know you weren't the first person to bring up software last night. :) At the same time, I wasn't looking to get into a huge debate about it, either. I was just pointing out that some of your skepticism may have been more pessimistic than was absolutely necessary, since it had largely been to the tune of, "They're going to break it again on purpose because they don't want you using IRC. Use xchat2 instead."

In essence, all I was looking to do was to prove that the developers aren't breaking things on purpose out of sheer spite. Asking if the software had been updated since the fix was fine. Reassuring me that they wouldn't rest until they break that feature again put me in a sour mood, as it seems to demonstrate the kind of animosity and/or grudge that won't look at facts. Which is why I'm not going to bother to discuss it with you again. I know you hate closed-source, love open-source, hate alpha and beta, love stable builds, and dislike companies that get paid for their work (since none of them put out a product that's stable enough or documented enough for your liking). I'll leave it like that.

As for having nothing to do...honestly, there isn't anything interesting to do. I could drive places, but all that does is use gas. There's nothing to do at the park, aside from walk around in circles. I hear they put in a new disc golf course, but I'm not exactly all that interested in disc golf, and I don't have a Frisbee. Still, like I said, I found something to do, in the form of video games. They are the kind that I play when I have nothing else to do and nobody to talk to, so it's appropriate that I'd be playing them now.

	From: altivo	Date: October 29th, 2007 03:08 pm (UTC)		(Link)

I know you ... dislike companies that get paid for their work

That's a bit of an exaggeration. There are commercial software companies that I am pretty well satisfied with, such as Userful (which happens to be a Canadian company by the way) and Innovative, both of whose products I use daily. Remember too that I used to work for a commercial software house, so my thoughts on the whole subject contain some inside knowledge as well as the more visible elements.

On the other hand, some non-profit, open source groups are doing a stellar job. Mozilla is one such, and though I have complaints there they so far are nothing like the massive objections I have to Microsoft. Another such is OpenOffice.org. I also find that Debian is doing a darned good job overall. Ubuntu may be improving, I haven't looked again since last winter. I just wasn't at all impressed with them at that time.

	From: heavens_steed	Date: October 30th, 2007 09:58 am (UTC)		(Link)

See? I'm not the only one who feels like you don't respect them for their views that you find disagreeable :P

	From: altivo	Date: October 30th, 2007 10:42 am (UTC)		(Link)

I give up. All right I won't say anything any more.

	From: corelog	Date: October 30th, 2007 01:47 pm (UTC)		(Link)

You keep on saying things to me.

	From: heavens_steed	Date: October 30th, 2007 09:54 am (UTC)		(Link)

LOL! I'm glad to see that I'm not the only one who feels that Tivo doesn't seem to respect their views. Rex, you're buying into the party mentality on software! You're going along with the crowd. You're too loyal to Microsoft and Windows. If you were one of the chosen elite, you would be specializing in Linux instead.

Okay, I'm being a little facetious here and intentionally exaggerating to make a point. Maybe you can understand why I get so upset when Tivo carries an attitude that if someone disagrees with him, they aren't just wrong, their character is flawed. That's exactly how I felt when he said that my views are nothing more than a carbon copy of political party rhetoric; something instantly reproduced exactly from the original instead of something that was forged and molded on its own. When someone says things like that, it means they don't respect your views or decisions.

How many times have I seen Tivo say to you how much you reminded him of me? I've observed numerous accounts where Tivo has upset you, even if just mildly, and then you display feelings very similar to mine. Yet when it happens to me, you act like you have no idea how I could feel the way I do. I don't understand that.

	From: corelog	Date: October 30th, 2007 01:46 pm (UTC)		(Link)

I'm going to split hairs for just a moment here. :)

There's one little difference between your reaction and mine. I feel that Tivo respects -me-, just not my choices in software. There's a bit of a difference. I know very well that Tivo loves me, cares about me, and respects my personhood. Just because I sometimes feel that he likes to throw rainwater over my cheerful software parade, doesn't mean that I feel that way all the time. It also doesn't mean I feel that he's somehow slighted me as a person.

I can totally understand how you might feel that he doesn't respect your views, decisions, or choices. Okay, he's human, just like me and you. Sometimes, I make the mistake of disrespecting somebody else's choices. Sometimes, I make that mistake on purpose, just to emphasize my dislike of that particular choice. Still, when I'm told I've crossed a line, I apologize and back off. The fact that I openly disrespected a choice, does not mean that I disrespect the person.

Again, you have to separate things a little. The fact that I do some idiotic things, even systematically for years and years, does not make me an idiot. The fact that Tivo disagrees with and appears to disrespect your views on occasion does not mean that he doesn't respect you as a person.

It's not black and white. Shades of grey, my dear, shades of grey. :)

	From: altivo	Date: October 30th, 2007 02:30 pm (UTC)		(Link)

Indeed. :D

	From: schnee	Date: October 29th, 2007 07:43 am (UTC)		(Link)

The dark morris? Hey, how about we also do the stick-and-- oww, OK, I'll shut up already! ^^

	From: altivo	Date: October 29th, 2007 10:33 am (UTC)		(Link)

*serves you a dish of strawberry wobbler to keep you quiet* ;p

Seriously, his group have been doing the Dark Morris for several years now. They were one of the first to publicize it in the US at least.

	From: schnee	Date: October 29th, 2007 11:45 am (UTC)		(Link)

MMmmmm, strawberry wobbler... with special secret sauce, too? ^.^

But outside of that, does the dark morris actually exist? The Wikipedia entry sure reads like it mostly refers to Terry's version, mentioning octiron bells and all that.

	From: altivo	Date: October 29th, 2007 02:56 pm (UTC)		(Link)

As far as I am aware, the Dark Morris (also called "Anti-Morris" and "Other Morris") did not exist at all in British tradition. Pratchett made it up. However, once he did that, some Morris sides began to dance it. Ravenswood is Gary's team and they were one of the first, if not THE first, to do so. The link from Ravenswood's site to one on the east coast is misleading, because Jeremy was originally a Chicago resident and took the "other Morris" tradition with him when he moved to Boston. ;p

	From: schnee	Date: October 29th, 2007 05:04 pm (UTC)		(Link)

Ah, thanks. :) *looks* That's cool, actually. ^^ But I suppose the Wikipedia article should probably be nominated for deletion, then, with a suggestion to the author to repost it on the Discworld wiki on L-space (which seems to lack an article on the dark morris so far).

	From: altivo	Date: October 29th, 2007 10:38 am (UTC)		(Link)

Actually there's a much better dance in Richard Amory's The Song of the Loon. Performed by gay Native Americans, it involves a spear and a hoop... However, doing that one in public in the US would probably get the dancers arrested.

	From: schnee	Date: October 29th, 2007 11:48 am (UTC)		(Link)

*chuckles* Hmm, that sounds... promising. :)

	From: altivo	Date: October 29th, 2007 02:57 pm (UTC)		(Link)

Amory's description makes it a bit too graphic for my taste I think. But the dance itself is humorous and clever.

	From: saythename	Date: October 29th, 2007 06:15 pm (UTC)		(Link)

A productive day, all in all.

	From: altivo	Date: October 29th, 2007 06:18 pm (UTC)		(Link)

Except that I didn't get any writing done. Sigh.

	From: saythename	Date: October 29th, 2007 06:47 pm (UTC)		(Link)

You know what you want to write, you
just saved it up.

	From: cabcat	Date: October 31st, 2007 09:52 am (UTC)		(Link)

*looks back and forth, tilts his head and scratches at his cheek with a paw*

*gasps sees the aquarium and is up against the glass watching the fish*

	From: altivo	Date: October 31st, 2007 10:09 am (UTC)		(Link)

Zippy little guys. I thought you'd like them. ;p

	From: cabcat	Date: October 31st, 2007 11:56 am (UTC)		(Link)

*wraps a napkin around his neck and gets out a little net*

	From: altivo	Date: October 31st, 2007 12:01 pm (UTC)		(Link)

Umm, I don't recommend that. Those little guys are toxic. Notice the blue stripes to warn predators?